>> we are one boston. no adversity, no challenge, nothing can tear down the resilience and the heart of this city and its people. ♪ >> nothing can defeat the heart of the city, nothing. nothing will take us down because we take care of one another. >> this is our city. and nobody going to dictate our

freedom. >> it's a glorious thing. i love the strength, the courage of our city. it will push us forward because this is boston, a city with courage, compassion, strength that knows no bounds. ♪ ♪ where it began ♪ i can't begin to know it ♪ but then i know it's growing strong ♪

hand touching hand ♪ >> nava hits it toward left field. it's going back. boston, this is for you! ♪ sweet caroline ♪ good times never seemed so good ♪ >> good morning. it's monday, april 22nd. welcome to "morning joe." with us on the set, msnbc contributor mike barnicle and the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. that was beautiful. >> beautiful. and, mike barnicle, you have spent your entire life going to boston red sox games. i would guess that no game

emotionally, no game, even given the past glories, was as emotional and is just epic as the game on saturday as -- because willie and i always joke about, hey, if we -- the worst thing in the world can happen to a city and dumb sportscasters will go, three hours, jim, this city forget there was a nuclear blast. >> something different was going on there. >> here, it can only happen in boston because boston is a one sports team town. at the end of the day, the sox that pull the entire team together. >> fenway. >> and fenway, the cathedral to a city. it had to be an amazing day there. >> it was. it was an amazingly emotional afternoon. it was a cathartic moment. a baseball game happened to have been played but it was if a tiny basilica on the back bay and the region was attracted to it.

the suspected suspect had been successfully captured the evening before. neil diamond called the red sox switchboard. >> are you kidding me? >> called the red sox switchboard and said i'm in town, my name is neil diamond. i'd like to come and sing the song and he showed up. >> wow. >> to the surprise -- >> which, of course, people are watching that don't know, that's been a tradition. >> yeah, for a long, long time, many years. middle of the eighth inning, they sing it. >> it's an incredible boston moment. >> but it was -- it was a poignant moment in the sense that the victims of the bombings were remembered and i remember each day and it will be remembered today. the casualties in the hospitals in the region were remembered. so the day came with a lot of emotional baggage. the game was played with a lot of emotional baggage, but it was something. >> should point out that it was nick and colin barnicle, mike

sons, production prospects that put that together. >> that was really good. i want to watch the whole thing! let's get to the news. we start right there. bells will ring throughout boston as 2:50 this afternoon to mark one week since the deadly marathon bomb struck. now, according to investigators the lone suspect is responding to questioning under heavy guard in the hospital, tsarnaev is undergoing brief rounds of interrogation apparently by writing his answers. he was shot through the neck in what suspect may be a suicide attempt. the boston police commissioner ed davis says it's possible the brothers were plotting more attacks based on what was found in their home. the suspect have roots in the chechnya region of russia. older brother tamerlan visited dagestan in 2012 a region in

southern russia where his father and mother still live. in an interview with "the wall street journal" their mother said tamerlan had given your boxing and drinking and smoking as he turned to a religious life and told the paper he phoned her the night he died saying, quote, the police, they have started shooting at us. they are chasing us. telling her he loved her before the phone went silent. and his uncle who lives in maryland says he believes the older brother became radicalized in cambridge and not overseas and eventually drew in his younger brother but lawmakers say more questions about their past need to be answered. >> we believe they may have traveled on an alias to get back to his home country and that seven months, six and a half months or so becomes extremely important. so you know he had some radicalization before he left, you know he probably didn't travel on his own name or some variation of his own name, and when he comes back, he has a

renewed interest in that radicalization belief process. it would lead one to believe that that is probably where he got that final radicalization to push him to commit acts of violence. >> this morning, "the boston globe" is reporting some stories about what happened in mosques and, in fact, said that the older brother had become radicalized. evidence is mounting that he had become islamic radical and the radicalization could have led to what happened last week. >> and, meanwhile, over the weekend, take a look at this. at the london marathon, runners waited 30 seconds before beginning their race. a moment of silence to remember the three people killed and more than 170 injured, just one week ago. >> richard haass, give us some background for americans that haven't focused on what has happened in chechnya.

don't go through deep through the weeds but talk about how the russians have been dealing with radical islam for years, and what this could mean for us. >> chechnya is a region of southern russia. in the old days under the soviet union. people were allowed to come back but ever since you had grievances and hatreds resentments and broke out to civil war. 20 odd years ago when the soviet union was transforming into russia. it has been tough and hard with the struggles. >> we talk about newtown. obviously, the horrors of newtown. we all remember the horrific siege at the school in that region that the terrorists killed so many young children. >> terrorism by definition is awful, brutal, it kills

innocence for political purposes but the standard of terrorism, this is basic tough stuff. no court given either side. neither side is prepared to give an inch to put it bluntly. >> there is a link, though, we don't know there is one, if the gripe in chechnya is with the russian government, why is he in boston killing americans? >> it's not clear, if you will, this is linked to that. i think you heard it from the end on what the story, which is the idea that the radicalization might well have happened here which i think is an important lesson. the internet has become a major recruiting tool, training tool for terrorists worldwide. the older brother clearly went over there. may have gotten training or further radicalization but my hunch he was already moving in that direction. you do not have to physically go somewhere now in order to be radicalized or trained. >> very early on in the investigation, they were

talking, obviously, about the style of the bomb, the device looked similar to bombs where they, on al qaeda sites. we have been showing an al qaeda video for the past several weeks related to guns where the terrorists were saying come to america and kill people because gun s easy to get. you don't have to go to pakistan and the tribal regions to be radicalized. you can sit in your apartment in cambridge or connecticut or wherever, and get these instructions. >> and that is the principle and perhaps the most important thread of this story that investigators are now working. what happened over the past two or threees in the lives of these two brothers? what happened to radicalize

them? that's a critical component of where this story is going to be. >> i don't believe chechnyaism is what this is about. if it's young people getting alienated and radicalized. london bombings, three of the four suicide bombers were radicalized. how do we prevent it for this time of alienation and how do we find out about it when. happens? >> mika, saw you in "the new york times" yesterday three other examples of muslims in the united states who became radicalized and tried to carry out the bombing in times square, s of course, the ft. hood

shooting. >> joe could face federal charges today and will likely be tried despite to have him held as an enemy combatant. >> i believe he should be treated as an enemy combatant for the purpose of interrogation. the reason for it there is so many questions unanswered and there's so many potential links to ter it ritual here. also the battlefield is now in the united states so i believe he is an enemy combatant and he would not be tried before a military commission. ultimately tried in a civilian court and the statement taken from him cannot be used against him in that trial. >> while the obama administration has agreed to delay a reading of his miranda rights under a public safety exemption, secretary of defense chuck hagel has not seen evidence to link the bombings to terror groups. scrutiny turns to the fbi who reportedly questioned the older brother tamerlan in 2011 at the request of a foreign government. this is so interesting. of russia. the fbi told the a.p. despite

interviewing him and relatives they did not find any activity. the agency dropped the ball. richard, i wonder if there is going to be a lot of questions and maybe even hearings out of this or what comes to mind just knowing those basic facts? >> there probably will be hearings of the fbi whether it learned more or could have done more. critics say that is monday morning quarterbacking. it ought to be about what we were talking about, what can we do to prevent or identify young people who are radicalized and how did we respond and how what did we learn about lockdowns. as the military would say it ought not to just focus on fbi. it's much bigger and much broader. we have to learn a lot from this. the reason is this is not a one off. this type of low, if you will, granular terrorism, a couple of

people and not talking about large networks or organizations. there could be copy cats stimulated by these guys and we better get used to this. >> talking about copycats. i want to ask about the decision to lock the entire city down in a minute. >> it's important to remember that these two young men had been in the united states for at least a decade, maybe more. it's not like they slipped in across the border to commit these atrocitities. they lived right there in cambridge. >> they were citizens. >> they were citizens of the united states. they presumably didn't arrive as 7 or 8 or 9-year-olds with these feelings toward the united states, whatever they may be. they learned those here. we have to figure out how it happened and how the next time we can stop it from getting to the point of feelings to action. >> you know, it would be nice, although i realize it's impossible, to have people who are running for office, whether you're running in south carolina or anywhere else, to just sit back, stop, and think about

this, because at one level, what happened here was a criminal act. they are murderers. before you make the leap into terrorism, they are murderers. that's the first thing that people ought to be aware of, especially united states senators who want to inject themselves into this thing. >> yeah. what do you guys think about the decision and, of course, i'm not second-guessing anybody. i did talk to a law enforcement officer over the weekend who, first of all, said, you know, it would have been much better for us all if this had been plotted out of a cave in afghanistan instead of, you know, an apartment in cambridge. >> one among us. >> yeah, one among us. but also he was saying not so sure about them shutting down the entire city and the message that that sends. you talk about copycats. the copycat said if i do something particularly heinous,

i can hold an entire city hostage. >> one of the purposes of terrorists is to disrupt and forcing a city shut down and the rest, she used that end in addition to killing and injurying that you do. one of the reasons -- i don't want to second-guess the tactical decision to lock down boston. but i don't think this is something that if you will a scaleable or sustainable. >> no, we can't do this. >> imagine these guys hadn't been captured and all that. >> after what happened to the boston marathon in an internationally visible way. we were covering this all morning long. i don't know what choice they had because the other problem is if you don't catch him that is even worse than holding a city hostage for a day. they had to get them. >> the amazing thing, to me, is a lifelong resident of the area or an area where people will give you the finger, you know -- >> if they like you! >> that people stay at home! >> ask for a way -- which way is fenway?

they always point -- >> find it yourself. >> or they point with the middle finger. what time is it? 1:00! >> one of the principle reasons that was requested and people responded is that they were finding secondary explosive devices and found a secondary explosive device. >> no choice. >> saturday morning. >> do you agree they should have shut the city down the way they did? >> yes. >> what do you think, willie? >> i think the standard will be interesting to hear afterwards. i understand why they shut it down but interesting to hear why they opened the city up when they did. the great irony 30 minutes after that announcement a guy goes out in the backyard in watertown to have a smoke, the tarp is up on his boat. >> oh, my lord! what an incredible story. >> leads to the age-old belief firmly understand by everyone nothing good happens when you buy a boat. >> joe, you know that. >> you have a boat. >> i do. >> you should get rid of it.

>> i was told the best day is when you buy the boat -- >> it's got to go! >> -- or when you sell the boat or a third now when you help break up a terrorist plot by going out to have a smoke by your boat. >> you are so right! >> can you imagine? >> nothing good happens. >> sito, i have a problem over here. >> get rid of the boat. >> can you guys handle domestic terrorists? speaking of senators injecting themselves. it seems that some senators, mika, are now starting to talk about how we should just slow down a little bit on immigration because of this. >> we have to get to guns this morning. the fact that the alleged bombers were born overseas is also shaping the discussion over immigration. republican senator chuck grassley says congress needs to take a step back in the debate to secure that the nation's security comes first. his comments were echoed by senator dan coats on sunday.

>> how can individuals evade authority and plan such attacks on our soil? how can we beef your security checks on people who wish to enter the united states? how do we ensure that people who wish to do us harm are not eligible for benefits under the immigration laws including this new bill before us? >> you usually end up with bad policy if you do it in an emotional ray or an emotional reaction. we saw some things post 9/11 that had we more irrational time to think this through, perhaps maybe we wouldn't have had some of the pushback on it. >> i watched this for several reasons. >> why? >> because i'm a big dennis rodman fan. people go crazy. richard is going up -- not only a senator but he was also an ambassador. he was so red-faced! >> he was purple! >> he was angry. >> he turned a brighter shade of purple than i've ever seen.

>> raging. >> no, sir, you were out of order! dan coats never told him he was out of order. >> what happened? >> respectful. >> we respectfully disagree. what did he say make you upset? >> returns to the debate we just had over mainstreaming minorities. we have 12 million americans living in the shadows one of the things we ought to do is integrate them fully into the american society. i don't think think a reason to slow down the immigration legislation. if anything i thought a reason to accelerate it. we studied it long enough and the time had come among other things to offer a path of citizenship. we don't want people in the country feeling a part of society. >> by, by, by, by the way, i mean, you're starting to sound like -- i've not named the newspapers but some newspapers after they figure out who these guys are, thee evil beasts are,

they start this, oh, why did we do this? we have integrated them! >> stop. >> it's like in the '60s, it was always society. no, there are evil people out there. it's not society's fault there are evil people out there. i thought kevin collins wrote a great column which basically said before you engage in the whole why do they hate us clap trap, let's just talk about the fact these guys were evil, they were beasts. guess what? it wasn't our fault that they put a bomb at the feet of an 8-year-old boy. don't blame society for that. blame radicalism, blame -- >> blame them. >> blame evil -- >> blame them. you have two cities involved here. cambridge, massachusetts, where they lived and watertown, massachusetts, where the older brother died. i challenge anyone to find two more inclusive communities than cambridge and watertown. it's incredible. >> crazy. >> seriously. >> so just stop it! >> you know what the problem

with cambridge is? they are too conservative there. too right wing and too reactionary. come on! no, they are not, they are freaks! i'm soaking, my dear friends in cambridge who watch the show but they are about as progressive and open-minded, you know? >> to richard's point. >> unless you're a conservative but go ahead. >> when you're spitting food all over yourself. >> did you see that? >> spewing! >> eggs benedict. >> i'm glad this came up! >> in any event, one of the elements involved in the identification and the capture of the two they were in the database. they had massachusetts driver's licenses so they had a name and a face and an address! so senator coats, realize what is going on out there! >> coming up on "morning joe" -- >> screaming at the ambassador and you're screaming at the ambassador. >> calling him names.

i have to take a look at this videotape and show it later. i'd like to see this. very interesting. coming up on "morning joe," commissioner of the new york city police department ray kelly will be here on set. we will get the laitest on the boston marathon situation with nbc investigator reporter pete williams. i don't think he takes a day off. and boston police commissioner ed davis and peter gammons will also join us. bill has our forecast now. >> all eyes on the midwest over the weekend. the heavy rains from last week caused epic flooding and in some cases even record flooding. six states dealt with major flooding problems including michigan, illinois, indiana, and as we went through areas of missouri and even iowa, unfortunately, three people did perish from rapidly rising floodwaters this weekend. a lot of the rivers did crest and they are slowly going to be going down from here. the one exception the illinois

river. you can see just thousands and thousands of people were sandbagging all weekend long trying to keep these rivers from flooding their towns. the mississippi river is the biggest river in town in our country and it's at major flood stage. anywhere from outside of the border with iowa and illinois there around the squad cities southward is where it's cresting as i speak and will crest later this afternoon a little further south down in this region. we are just about done with the flooding on the mississippi. the river that flows a little bit slower there is the illinois river and still have major flooding to do on areas around peoria and especially tuesday and the southern portion of the river on wednesday and thursday. besides that, we will be recovering from this latest round of floods. we do have rain heading for this region but it's not going to be enough to cause any more major problems. maybe half inch to an inch of rain tonight into tomorrow and that includes chicago, peoria, and st. louis. they don't need more rain after this and i don't think they will get much. they have a nice dry day wednesday and thursday and

friday, a chance of showers. overall it's heading to a drier weather pattern there in the areas hit so hard by floods this weekend. beautiful sunrise and a nice forecast for everyone on the east coast. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. the capital one cash rewards card

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explosion occurred in west texas but do not yet know what triggered the deadly blast. officials say no evidence of criminal activity in last wednesday's massive explosion adding there are no longer any fires burning at or around the destroyed facility. the explosion killed 14 people and injured 200 others. "usa today" the paper's founder al insist euharth died over the weekend. he founded the paper dubbed mcpaper in 1982. he spearheaded the museum in washington, d.c. and championed careers of women and minority and al neuharth was 90. >> he had sharp elbows to say the least. he lived a big life but also was very tough on costs.

huge cost cutter. a lot of newspaper people didn't particularly cheer what he did. >> you're absolutely right, but he was also caught up in what has happened to print all over the country. the bottom line is he created a vehicle that brought news to people. i mean, who hasn't stayed in a motel six and you wake up in the morning and there is a "usa today"? >> can i answer that? mika hasn't stayed in a hotel six! >> that's true. >> i was a reporter at cbs for many years. trust me, they put us in molt six. >> oh, stop. come on, please. >> clovis, texas? >> no doubt he was a forward thinker. no doubt about it. he changed it. again, very sharp elbows and i've known a lot of people who have worked for gwinnett through the years and a lot of newsrooms gutted, absolutely gutted. >> and some of them before they needed to be gutted. >> before they needed to be

gutted, i know. >> let's look at "the new york times." according to analysis by new york city nearly half of the city's population is in or near poverty although more new yorkers were employed in 2011 than the year before. a larger proportion of working adults and children classified as poor. the report warns that future cutbacks in future programs will threaten future recovery and greater press on the next mayor. that study comes from the mayor's office. >> can you believe that? 46% of people who live in new york. 46% that live in the city are either poor or very nearly poor. >> stunning staesk. >> it's rough. the part-time workers, people who need full-time jobs are going for the part-time jobs all they can get on every level. >> no benefits. >> why the unemployment statistics aren't as interesting as the employment statistics.

shows you how many americans are working -- >> the chief white house correspondent for politico is mike allen. he has a look at the playbook. >> good morning. >> talk about a piece up on the front page of the site right now. internal fight over immigration taking place within the republican party. you're talking about ted cruz and marco rubio. what are the two sides here? >> here question of an embodiment of the soul searching in the party. marco rubio, senator from florida, who sow there as the face of the senate's immigration deal and who has been out marketing it behind the scenes to conservative hosts and leaders. then you have ted cruz, senator from texas. another rising star in the party -- >> can i ask you? is ted cruz suggesting that an immigration plan would lead to a national gun registry? >> what he has said, joe, he has real questions about the path to

citizenship in the bill, he said, to some reporters at the capitol late in the week, if the bill is conditioned on a path to citizenship and, yes, senator cruz, it is, he said it probably won't pass. he hasn't decided he is going to become kind of part to rubio, a face to the opposition but racing questions to show the two republican stars will give different camps places to line up behind. >> is that a smart play? does he want to come out, ted cruz, and stand across from marco rubio and be the opposition? >> i think ted cruz is lining everything up perfectly to be the rising star for the republican party in 1994. i'm very excited for him. my only problem is -- >> "back to the future"? >> my only problem is the rangers lost. every time the rangers lose a baseball game, he puts out a press release saying this loss could very well lead to the choking of our freedoms and the

creation of a national gun registry. >> come on! come on! >> i'm understanding a lot of people are suggesting on washington and capitol hill could lead to a national gun registry. >> joe, something that senator -- >> the chicken weed in your backyard, if you don't take care of that chicken weed by night fall tonight, my friends, we could very well have a national gun registry! my friends, freedom is dying today! >> i'm fascinated. >> today, the national gun registry is going to be created. texas rangers understand the weight that you're carrying on your shoulder. mike, the very constitution of the united states depends on the rangers winning every baseball game or national gun registry, my friends! a national gun registry is going to be created! >> too early! >> tonight pass immigration reform, mike. the national gun registry will be created. do not save medicare. the national gun registry my be

created. >> i'm not sure how many are aware of this, a week and a half ago there was a threat that nolan ryan would leave the texas rangers. >> national gun registry. >> had he left the texas rangers, it was almost certain that following his resignation from the rangers, they could come for your guns. >> point taken. can get to the next store? >> thank you, mika. >> let's draw the line at the goats. >> mike allen, what do you got? >> definitely got an -- >> mike, i'm listening. i swear. >> thank you, willie. we will have a little -- >> go ahead, mikey! >> so we definitely have an youtube class there. >> by the way, can i just say something? taking everything that somebody says and immediately putting it on youtube will lead to a national gun registry. it really is. my friends, be aware.

perhaps the food you're eating this morning could lead to a national gun registry. can you believe those clowns? do you believe those clowns on capitol hill? everything is going to lead to a national gun -- mike, i'm sorry. did i interrupt you? >> there is another story. >> give us another story. >> real quick. i will say senator cruz actually does think that even if he doesn't put his chips on immigration he clearly wants to be the superconservative alternative to senator rubio and senator rand paul of kentucky who has talked very friendly, had very friendly talk about immigration reform. that shows your gop split. another story up on politico today that you guys will enjoy, the headline, weiner ties could be awkward for schumer, clinton and -- >> come on! >> talking about youtube. >> on his blackberry yesterday aig could weiner ties be awkward for anyone?

what maggie haberman has learned here. >> what has she learned? >> it's actually important. >> really is ramping up mayoror campaign. chuck schumer has been a mentor to him and wants in his camp. maggie learned that former congressman weiner is actively moving toward hiring staff. she points out the clinton connection is awkward because he will be asked about it everywhere and anthony weiner running for mayor is huge national story and married to his wife huma who is a close friend of the clintons but irritated he went on new york one saying bill clinton had been supportive and bill clinton would not endorse in a mayoral primary. >> don't do that. >> that story is not over. >> does he support national gun registry, weiner? >> not that i'm aware of. >> could i ask you another question some could he have a

religious conversion and change his name to winer? matthew winer did it right. >> too late now. >> mike allen, i think this went pretty well, huh? >> happy you dropped by, mike? >> thanks, mike, politico playbook. talk to you later. i think he left. coming up next, an emotional ceremony up in fenway park where they play tribute to their city and fans and we will talk to the great peter gammons next. ♪ for seeing your business in a whole new way. for seeing what cash is coming in and going out... so you can understand every angle of your cash flow- last week, this month, and even next year. for seeing your business's cash flow like never before, introducing cash flow insight powered by pnc cfo. a suite of online tools that lets you

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so like i'm telling the guy. he hands me the drink and there is no whip cream on it. i said, dude, you know, it starts slowly. first, you know, they come for my whip cream and then -- >> what are you talking about? >> then they come for my baseball bat. >> then take your gun, right? >> then they come for -- this is how. you can check. you can check. this is how it -- it happened in nazi germany. this is how it happened in st stallins in russia. >> i think you might have problems. >> i'm not the one that has problems, trust me. then they come for your guns. >> i'm going to start knitting. >> this is a national gun

registry and liberals like you that don't understand that -- for instance take the bill last week. >> they was unbelievable. is wrong with people? >> toomey puts in there they will send you to jail for 15 years if anybody tries to start a national gun registry. but it wouldn't. it would actually -- it's just the opposite. it actually strengthens second amendment rights. i'm telling this guy, the whipped cream is is not on there, willie. it's a slippery slope. the nra told me this, by the way, it's a slippery slope. >> you're this close to cambodia. >> we are this close! seriously, seriously! it's the killing fields in a week and a half if we don't guard our freedoms and protect -- and clutch our freedoms like a little baby boy. >> i don't think people are following at this point. i think you ought to let it go. >> i think our audience is smart enough to understand what the idiots they were on capitol hill and fools.

>> we know that. >> liars actually when they said this is going to lead to a in the gun registry. i think they can do something. >> we have peter gammons on an unrelated story. >> he is probably for a national gun registry. >> please. >> joining us on the phone from boston. peter, we are so glad to have you here this morning. as incredibly emotional as that scene at fenway was over the weekend to watch on television, i can't imagine what it must have been to be like inside the stadium. >> it was -- it was a remarkable period. i was actually in the dugout from about an hour before the ceremony right on through the ceremony and the emotion of the players really staggered me. i mean, at one point, when they had the video of the marathon video and so forth at the beginning of the ceremony, i said something to daniel nava about keeping his glasses on. he said i'm not sure i want the

whole world to see me crying. they didn't score a run the first five innings and david ross had said, it took us at least five innings to have the tears dry so we could see the ball. then david ortiz, you know, the business of his infamous address but very passionate, you know? this is out city and no one is going to dictate our freedom. was really a remarkable thing. this is a team that was disconnected from the people of boston for the last couple of years. really a team that lost its soul and they reconstructed it and this event of this week -- jon lester wins a game in cleveland and comes back to the clubhouse and tweets, with the names of the three victims on monday, and the players really got into it in such a way that, i don't

know. it's unusual for players to end up in a relationship with the people of the city and, yet, this did. this definitely brought them all together. >> peter, i spotted you down on the field at about a quarter past 9:00 saturday morning. you're, obviously, an early arrival, as was i, but the ortiz speech, brief as it was, has resonated in more than just our region, i think. i had someone close to the club, someone who you know, tell me that, you know, the difference between david ortiz and a lot of professional athletes, not all certainly, ortiz is a real human being. he's a genuine human being. could you speak to that? >> he actually is. that huge fun that he has for kids, underprivileged kids in the dominican republic speaks to it. there was a time, a couple of

years ago, when an inner city boston baseball team, the boston astros, which actually play in the largest free league in america, and they won the national au championship and they are were being honored at fenway, and so i got him to come out and talk to all of these kids, mainly minorities from the south end in dorchester and not only did ortiz talk to them an hour and a half but he had them bus out to his restaurant and gave them all dinner. he gets so involved in the human condition. he's a very unusual person. he's very smart. and he had said to me during batting practice that morning at about 11:00, you know what? this week, we got to watch people who know what they are willing to fight for and he said, you know, we are really

lucky to play for those people. that's not something you hear a great deal from athletes. >> and his line now iconic appears on t-shirts, i'm told, throughout the new england area. >> i have one. >> i bet you do. we won't forget that one. hall of famer pete gammons, thank you for calling in. >> thank you very much. >> mlb tonight airs seven days a week and go to mlb network.com for a local listing. ahead, new yorkers david remnick will be here. you're watching "morning joe." ♪

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school along with five other educators and other children. it's grossly unfair to the family members of newtown as well as all other gun violence victims. if my mom was not afraid in sandy hook they should not be afraid to protect millions of people. >> my mother was protecting her kids. why can't they protect us? >> maureen dowd had an op-ed on the gun vote and we will read that in the next hour on "morning joe." >> her take away was -- >> it was rough. >> that they deserve more than a vote. they deserved a law, especially, again, we are not talking about gun control. >> they deserved a full-on campaign to change the gun law. still ahead on "morning joe," he supported the toomey/man chin bill and we will ask senator bob casey of pennsylvania what is next for gun control legislation. he joins us in ju a few minutes.

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coming up next, we will get the latest on the boston bombing investigation straight from the source. boston police commissioner ed davis joins us next. also the new yorker david remnick. more "morning joe" when we come back. ♪

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nick and colin barnicle. they usually do work for mlb but they put this together from their heart. >> they live here in new york but they grew up in boston. >> for no reason but -- >> captures the heart of boston for the weekend for sure. welcome back to "morning joe." we start with boston. bells ring throughout boston at 2:50 this afternoon to mark the one-week anniversary since the deadly maybombing struck the bon marathon. now, according to investigators the lone suspect is responding to questioning under heavy guard in the hospital, tsarnaev is undergoing brief rounds of interrogation apparently by writing his answers. he was shot through the neck in what suspect may be a suicide attempt. the boston police commissioner ed davis says it's possible the brothers were plotting more

attacks based on the number of devices found on the scene and in their home. a complex is emerging of the suspects who have roots in the chechnya region. tamerlan from dagestan where his father and mother still live. in an interview with "the wall street journal" their mother said tamerlan had given your boxing and drinking and smoking as he turned to a religious life and told the paper he phoned her the night he died saying, quote, the police, they have started shooting at us. they are chasing us. telling her he loved her before the phone went silent. and his uncle who lives in maryland says he believes the older brother became radicalized in cambridge and not overseas and eventually drew in his younger brother. a lot of questions how to handle the remaining suspect. >> david wrote, you wrote about

the culprits. >> yeah, i spent friday looking at a lot of the youtube web sites and so on that had been visited by tamerlan and they were -- they were all jihadists. no question he was spending a lot of time looking at and listening to really highly radical islamist preachers, video that al qaeda has put out and not so private interest. he was talking about this with a circle of friends both at his mosque and in a circle of ex-boxing friends. he was berating store keepers who were muslim for selling thanksgiving turkeys. he was really deep with this and everybody knew it around him. >> richard, talk about, if you could, we will get to the boston police commissioner quickly next, but the issue as to how to handle this prisoner at this point and some saying he should be treated as an enemy

combatant. >> this idea has been put forward by several members of the senate. i don't think it stands scrutiny. we are talking about people who are american citizens formally and in one case moving that direction in the other. there's no record historically that treating people as enemy combatants gets more information or testimony. the conviction record is actually quite good in normal courts. we were talking about this before. the purpose of terrorism is to disrupt. why should we somehow move away from the institutions that make us who we are in one of the things that make our country great is the legal system and rule of law. why make ourselves the issue now and move away from what it is? this is the right thing to do. >> what is the argument from those saying that we shouldn't read this guy's miranda rights? >> the word if you go down that path they won't give you the information, that they will clam up and delay it and if there are foreign links or plans to do other things, they will use the american legal protections that they ought not to be able to,

which s by the way, the reason that we have delayed presumably miranda rights so you have this public safety exception which allows the authorities to do exactly what we want to do. >> i totally agree with richard. i'm afraid that on the part of some politicians, this is a way to feel and look tougher than tough. and i think our just system is plenty tough and we have a 100% conviction rate of terrorists of american citizenry on american soil. 100% convict rate and those people are in jail for life. and that is good enough and very much is a reflection of our institutions of justice. those people were given a trial and they went to jail for life as they deserve. >> here from boston is boston police commissioner ed davis. commissioner davis, thank you so much for joining us. we would love to be brought up on the latest on the investigation from your perspective and also all of the different indications that you all have gathered that these two

were planning more attacks. >> well, good morning. we are working diligently with the fbi as the lead to try to put the pieces together of this puzzle. i can't say anything about the ongoing investigation, but i can tell you that we're satisfied that the two actors here, the two people that were committing the damage have either been arrested or killed. the people of the city of boston can rest comfortably at this point in time. >> mike barnicle? >> ed, first of all, how is officer richard donohue doing? >> mike, he is improving. he suffered a very serious injury and we were holding our breath for a full day, but the latest indications are he is coming along so we're very optimistic. prayers go out to him and his family. >> could you clarify the two cars involved in the pursuit on

thursday? one is a car-jack and the other appears to be a car that is registered or belongs to one of the two brothers. could you clarify the two cars' involvement? what happened there? >> there were two cars at the scene. i observed that when i arrived at the scene of the shoot-out. it's impossible for me to discuss the details of the investigation, mike. i have to be very careful on that. >> i got you. i understand. >> can you say something about the arsenal that these guys had? what bombs they had? what guns, what rifles and so on? >> one report saying over 250 rounds of expended amount initiation at the scene alone. >> and where they might have gotten these guns. >> that's true. there were over 200 rounds fired at the scene. they were armed with sidearms and explosive devices.

one that has been wild publicized was one of the pressure cooker devices that was similar to what we saw on boylston street. beyond that, i can't get into the details. the atf is working very closely with the fbi to make sure that we track those weapons down and determine where they came from, but, again, it's an ongoing active investigation. >> richard haass? >> commissioner, could you say something about the lockdown? the irony that when it ended a half hour later a guy took a smoke in his backyard and found the second suspect under the tarp of his boat. can you say something about the lockdown and did it make your job easier or tougher? >> sure that decision was made in consultation with mayor menino and governor patrick and every head of the command post. that was an important conversation. it was an important debate that occurred before we did it. it was based solely on public safety. no pressures on any other issue.

we were trying to limit the number of people killed or injured and we had an active bomber that was running around the city so we closed the city down and i think it was the right decision. >> ed, in an area, a region, in greater boston, where there has been a history of a ten uous relationship. i think a lot of people were impressed with the communication and cooperation among all of the agencies in pursuit of these two suspects. >> the cooperation and coordination among the three main agencies is the boston police, state police, and the fbi, was flawless. we were all at the same table. the transit police played an important role for this and providing a command post for us in the early hours right after

the shoot-out and we got into that transit bus and we sat there and we made decisions that affected the overall control of this. chief and i at the scene locked down the 20 blocks. we had hundreds of police officials responding to the scene and it was seamless. state police were doing what we said and we were doing what state police said and the fbi was bringing up intelligence. rick deslauriers is a tremendous partner in this. i think all of that put concerns in boston to rest. >> one last question, ed. is it possible for to you give me an over or under on the number of hot dogs that you and rick devoe consumed saturday in john henry's box on saturday? >> and do not say there is an ongoing investigation. you have to answer this one, buddy. >> sorry about that, guys. seriously it's been a week of highs and lows and the fenway experience was really one of the

highs, i'll tell you that. >> boston police commissioner ed davis, thank you so much, and thank you for everything that you do. >> thank you. >> thank you. have a good day. appreciate your patience. >> we will move on to the gun issue that was brewing last week. a lot of us still in awe of what happened on capitol hill. here is what maureen dowd writes about president obama in the "the new york times." no bully in the pulpit. unfortunately, she says, president obama still has not learned how to govern. how is it the problem won the argument on gun safety with the public and lost the vote in the senate? it's because he didn't know how to work the system and it's clear that he doesn't want to learn or even hire some clever people who can tell him how to do it or do it for him. it's unbelievable that with 90% of americans on his side, he could only get 54 votes in the senate. it was a glaring example of his weakness in using leverage to

get what he wants. no one on capitol hill is scared of him. >> you know, i share maureen's frustration, deep, deep frustration. and there really was 90% public opinion on the side of gun legislation. this was the mildest of gun legislation and the mildest imaginable and it failed. in public, president obama was eloquent and in the final analysis, angry and convincing yet again. i think the hope and maybe the fantasy is that barack obama is somehow going to become lyndon johnson and he is going to bend over one legislator after another with both persuasion and threat and all of the levers of power. i just don't know if that politics obtains at all in washington any more, that the independence of senators and the lack of party discipline and all that does not seem to be the same in 2013 as it is. i'm not speaking in defense of him. i share her frustration. >> i share her frustration too.

we don't have to go back, though, to 1965. go back to 2007. go back to 2008. george w. bush had an approval rating in the low 30s. he had 78% of americans against the -- he had nancy pelosi as a speaker of the house. george w. bush -- i know the bush library is opening up -- this is a study of contrast. the statement that it's better to be feared than loved is born out in the examples of george w. bush and barack obama, because legislators knew that george w. bush was going to get his way or he was going to beat them up. bush, time and time and time again in 2007 and 2008, when his approval ratings were at their lowest, he got what he wanted because congressman or a senator in either party knew that -- >> and barack obama got it on

health care. not a different human being. >> that they would be destroyed if they didn't give bush what he wanted, that he was going to use everything he could use in his arsenal to get what he needed. >> we don't disagree. i feel this and i share your frustration. i share maureen's. i think maureen is right. i just don't know if a senator from north dakota who wants to stay now as a senator forever is willing to risk it. >> you know barack obama would never say we helped you get elected last time. this is what i would do. we helped you get elected last time, heidi. i'm going to pick up this phone and spend the afternoon, if you vote against me on this, because this is not gun control. and you know it's not gun control. there's no national registry. >> it's not even remotely gun control. >> i would say this to every democrat. i'm going to be on this phone and i'm going to do nothing but call every one of my supporters and tell them to make your life

a breathing hell over the next two years. i will make sure none of your legislation pass. most presidents would do this. >> joe, i'm with you. >> but to say this can't be done. most presidents i know. >> i'm not saying it can't be done. >> i know. i'm saying for people at home, it's a different era. no, it's not if you say, here is the deal. you vote out of fear if you want. you follow the lies if you want. i tell you what i'm going to do. i'm going to veto every single bill that comes my way that has anything to do with what you want to do. i'm going to say whatever bill you want to pass is going to lead to a national gun registry. that can still happen and it's still done in washington by presidents who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. it's not in his dna. and, you know, it's an ongoing frustration. >> it's infuriating to watch him

speak in the rose garnden and s eloquently press his anger after the fact of losing. losing is the terrible fact. again, it wasn't gun control. this is the mildest smallest legislation imaginable. the nra won this battle over and over again and ratcheted it down to nothing. >> the president can't control republicans obviously. >> but he should be able to control the democrats. >> can you control the democrats and say stand shoulder-to-shoulder with me and we will be one republican away from getting this thing passed and then i will unleash hell and fury on this one republican. personally i would pick the republican from new hampshire. i would pick kelly ayotte and say we will stay on her back until her approval rating is in the 20s. you could pass this legislation. there is a clear path, richard! there is a clear path to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists, to keep guns out of

the hands of criminal, violent criminals. >> look at what happened in boston. they didn't just have homemade bombs. >> richard? >> what it takes it after the fact and each one of the people who voted against this, say the five democrats and others, they are going to have to be primary and there has to be a political demonstration that this is no longer the safe vote to go with the nra and is no longer the safe vote and until that happens, the fundamentals of this issue will not change. >> the importance of what a lot of people, sensible saying people that want to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists and criminals, you know, that battle has just begun. >> yes. >> and politicians to have their political careers destroyed by ignoring the 90%. >> i'm very sad we are not further down the road and working on the mental health aspect. bill daly wants his money back. >> he contributed $2,500 to the

united states senator from north dakota has a piece in the op-ed page in "the post" i want my money back. he sent a campaign contribution. this is how you deal with things as you eluded to. you put out a shutdown order for these democrats, especially, who voted against this bill. >> and especially going for senators, six-year term which would provide a little cover for courage you would think. >> so let's share the blame/responsibility here. the president clearly has an issue whether it comes to dealing with congress. that's pretty clear. he doesn't like it. he doesn't like congress. he doesn't like what they do. he doesn't like what they represent. that is all understandable. the congress of the united states, the senate specifically s a fractured institution and it's been broken for quite some time. thus, you've got really capable people leaving the united states senate. just walking away from the united states senate. all of a sudden, it's 60 votes that you have to get to pass anything. what if it were 60% of the vote

that these guys and people, women, had to get in order to get elected to the united states senate instead of 50? what if they changed the rules on that? if this particular senate had been in business in 1965 operating the way then that this particular senate operates now, you would not have had a voting rights bill. you would not have had it and not a series of civil rights pieces of sieve legislation pass given the way this senate operates. >> it's about leadership. david? >> i agree. >> on both sides of pennsylvania avenue -- >> we have had arguments on this show before about barack obama. i'm disappointed in him. i think he wasn't strong enough. i agree with, sadly, with maureen's column. >> i go back to what an ambassador from the middle east told me in year one about president obama. i thought he was extraordinarily moving at the state of the union. but said from the mistake they

make, richard, i'm sure you heard this a lot. mistake they make at the white house in twine they blebelieve speech is the end instead of the speech the mean to get to the end. you start there. but you have to do the lyndon johnson, the george w. bush which is -- >> you think they are. the most salient fact in maureen's column is the person they are sending up to the hill is practically invisible. they think they are bending ears and doing politics but it's so ineffectual the result is what the result was. >> i've always had this saying when i was in congress and, mike, you'll remember the quote. from the great pitcher dizzy dean. it always help if you think the batter is a little dizzy. i always made sure when i went

into a negotiation politically the other person knew i was going to die before i was going to lose. if it was something that was really important to me. i say i'm going to lose this but i'm taking you down with me. i will everything i have to do to win. you will not win by getting in my way. you choose those moments carefully but when i chose them, i always got everything i wanted. in this case, nobody believes on capitol hill, a freshman from north dakota doesn't believe that this president has in him to say, i'm going to make your life a living and breathing hell if you don't work with me to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists. >> too bad because not only a lost opportunity domestically. the foreign policy of this also. the most interesting thing that reagan did early on in foreign policy was the air traffic controller strike and toughness at times at home have

repercussions aboeroad. this story got lost because of the boston bombings. >> but helps new awax. you only have to send that message once or twice to have one person go back and go, he is crazy. you know what he just told me? he said he was going to destroy me. >> what the president, what president obama, for reasons not only to him and his nature, clearly does not do or cannot do is something that lyndon johnson did do and this story has been repeated too many times for it not to be apockrifal. frank church a senator from idaho opposed senator johnson on an element of vietnam policy and another senator, i forget which one, wanted a line in an appropriations bill for a dam in his state. and he was on the fence with regard to lyndon johnson's view on vietnam policy. he called the president specifically asking, i need

this. kou help me get it? and the president of the united states, lyndon baines johnson told him call frank church for your damn -- and hung up the phone. >> i just would say, though, that i think the president is being legitimately criticized at this table right now and we also would be criticizing if it had passed as much too weak but he has gotten through a lot of things. i think on foreign policy and simply weak -- >> this was a pretty big one. >> this is a big loss, no question. no question. >> hold it. >> the idea that -- somehow that he has been weak all the way is really wrong. >> nobody is calling him weak here. i don't think anybody -- >> we just spent five minutes saying that. >> we are disappointed and suggesting he doesn't know yet how to flex his muscles in washington, d.c. he's not weak. but there's a difference between knowing how to legislatively

break people's arms. >> you say enormously been passed. this should not have been so difficult. >> i totally agree with you on the gun control issue. >> speaking of flexing muscles in washington, one of my favorites was jack murtha. he had a rule. you come to me. jack was a tough democrat from pennsylvania. and we will talk about it, but do not put an amendment on my bill when it goes to the floor. he was military appropriations. and marcy capper did one time. >> could i ask you -- >> guess what happened to her requests? you just don't do it. and, again, mur sha setha sent message. it's not too late for the president and not too late for a lot of people. we can get this passed and keep

guns out of the hands of terrorists and guns out of the hands of criminals. we can pass background checks. >> what would have been the message to those democrats? >> i'm going to make your life a living and breathing hell and they have to believe it and then you make their life a living and breathing hell and so many ways to do that in washington. >> all right. david remnick, stay with us. ahead, new york police commissioner ray kelly will be on the set and also bob casey from pennsylvania and live from boston, lawrence o'donnell. up next, nbc justice correspondent pete williams. >> this guy is a superstar, by the way! the kids are talking about him and he has his own youtube channel. >> bobblehead doll. >> i bet he'll do a music video on the 1985 chicago bears. he is going to cooperstown! the humble back seat.

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washington, msnbc justice correspondent pete williams who has been all over this story. j dzhokhar tsarnaev will be charged in a civilian court given the debate we have been talking about this this morning. that will be happening to him? >> no question. a policy decision the obama administration has made. he was a american citizen and naturalized last september and now a federal law, the national defense authorization act of 2012 that says american citizens cannot be tried in military commission. so it's not -- this debate is not a question about where he should be tried. the republicans who say he should be treated differently, their claim is that while they understand the civilian trial will go forward, they think he should be treated for now as an enemy combatant and questioned without any question about his rights, without any issue about whether information he gives would be used in his trial, and then turn back over to civilian authorities. but, clearly, the justice

department will have none of that. that's not how it's going to go. >> he's in a boston hospital under heavy guard and serious condition including a gunshot wound to the throat but he is responding to some questions to a team the federal investigators in writing. any indication as to what he is saying or maybe perhaps just what they are trying to get out of him at this point? >> right. they are questioning for just brief periods because of his medical condition and they say he is responding mostly in writing but not much. these are not highly detailed questions or answers. of course, the immediate questions are what they, by the way, have to be under this rule that they are using, this public safety exception to the standard miranda warning. as you know, the miranda warning is every viewer of law and order knows is the requirement that when police arrest you they say you have the right to remain silent, have the right to a lawyer and anything you say can and will be used against you. if the police did not give that warning then they cannot use anything that the suspect says

in trial. it's inadmissible as evidence, except for this public safety exception which says if you need to get information to save guard public safety. they have to stay within the bounds of that exception. they are asking there were any other bombs or any other plotters and some other imminent threat. >> are they asking about the money? >> they can but not in this questioning because that is beyond to safeguard public safety. did they have outside help? did they have outside funding? you know, where did they go to practice their bomb making and where did they learn to make bombs and was there any foreign influence and all of those questions eventually be on the table. >> pete, what is your sense of the time window of this exception? how long does it go on before he is allowed to bring a lawyer into the conversation? >> you know, that's an excellent

question. there is no firm answer to it. it's not like it's one of the federal rules of criminal procedure. this is judge made law based on court decisions that originally had nothing to do with terrorism. my recollection is this is a case where somebody robbed a store and left a gun in there somewhere and they were trying to ask the guy where the gun was but the judge in subsequent cases have extended this to terrorism cases. but it begins to expire the moment you invoke it and i can't imagine they could stretch it beyond, say, 36 to 48 hours. >> pete, back to the event itself. we asked ed davis, the police commissioner, who was on with us earlier, about the two cars used on thursday evening, prior to the shoot-out to get to the shoot-out location. we know there was a car jacking that occurred. we know that the car jacking victim was led out at a shell station on memorial drive but

then there were two cars. can you bring any clarity into when two cars were involved with one brother driving each car obviously? and where did this come from? >> we are still trying to nail that down, mike, and we are not sure about that. by the way, we have e-mailed with the car jacking, the owner of the car that was car-jacked. he does not want to be interviewed. he doesn't want to be seen on camera. what he has told us is that he escaped. there was this question whether they released him or whether he escaped. they say that he definitely escaped. he described them as brutal, but cautious. he also told the police investigators after this episode when they finally got him, he is the one who called 911, that they let him out of the car and didn't kill him because he wasn't an american. >> two points. one point there is indications that dzhokhar tsarnaev may have tried to kill himself by

shooting himself in the neck. the other was this business, a moment in "the times" this morning in its lead story that tsarnaev might have been headed toward new york. i don't know where they are getting this exactly and i'm wondering what information you might have on both points. >> okay. on the one point, it's the nature of the wound. it's where it is in the back of the neck and the question is -- i won't get -- i won't demonstrate it, but the thought is maybe he did try to kill himself by bringing the gun in close proximity, if you understand what i'm saying. as for the idea they were going to new york, this again comes from the person who owned the car. he told the police that he couldn't understand what they were saying but that he thought it was, quote, blah, blah, blah, blah manhattan blah, blah, blah. >> meaning they were speaking either in russian or chechen? >> yes. he thought it was arabic but it wasn't either one of those, of

course. the police understand what he was saying but doubt he could really understand what they were saying. the other thing that occurred to me when i heard about this, how many people in america refer to the place where you're sitting right now as manhattan? they say new york. so, i don't know. i talked to somebody this morning about this and i don't think they are putting a lot of credibility in it. >> pete, just to clarify before we let you go here, the car-jacked victim, he gets out of the car at the shell station and escapes and goes across the street to make the 911 call says via e-mail that he thinks they didn't kill him because, according to him, they say we didn't kill you because he wasn't -- because you're not an american? >> yeah, just a slight change to that. we have e-mailed with him, but the part about they didn't kill him -- because he didn't want to answer many questions in our e-mail. i asked him a whole bunch of questions. he responded to only one and said that is all i'm going to say which is i asked whether he

escaped or whether they let him out. he said he escaped. but he told the police investigators when they finally caught up with him that he believes they let him out, that they told him they weren't going to kill him because he was not an american. his name would suggest he's not a native born american. >> nbc justice correspondent pete williams, thank you. >> you bet. still ahead on "morning joe," a new book on afghanistan that attracted the attention of president hamid karzai himself. we will talk to award winning journalist coming up. we will be right back. ♪

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♪ looking at a wonderful shot there of the capitol. we are looking at everything green there and green lives here too. this is earth day. this is green as universal all week long all of the properties and networks of nbc are bringing awareness everything you can do and we are doing to help make everything green. your forecast goes, we had enough rain for about a month or two in the midwest and we dealt with the flooding as we went through the weekend. mississippi river has crested

going down from here. one more big river, the one in through the biggest river there through illinois. the illinois river is krefting. pe peoria, tomorrow and south of peoria and where they are sandbagging and dealing with major flooding. i mentioned the mississippi is cresting as i speak. there is the proof of it in the pictures. the highly populated areas are protected but thousands of acres of farmland that you see like that are just flooded that aren't protected by any levee systems along the mississippi river. they will get more rain there and tomorrow. you can see it showing up there in areas of iowa. not the soaking 4 to 6 inches like last week. talking a half an inch. rivers will go down slowly because of the rain but the forecast looks okay. another chance of showers on friday but not more big rain systems heading for the middle of the country. oh, by the way, it's cold in the northeast this morning. albany at 31 but the sun is out and a little bit nicer this

afternoon for the frigid areas of the northeast. you're watching "morning joe." stay tuned, we have more coming up. he voted yes on the toomey/manchin background checks bill despite earning an a rating on the nra. we will talk to senator bob casey when we come back next on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] ah... retirement. sit back, relax, pull out the paper and what? another article that says investors could lose tens of thousands of dollars in hidden fees on their 401(k)s?! seriously? seriously. you don't believe it? search it.

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forth a tremendous effort on this. i don't know what more he could have done. and i think as much as people are frustrated -- look, i was frustrated not just with the background check result which was bad for the point of view that i now hold, but i was frustrated with the votes after that. nobody is talking about the votes that occurred on the ammunition and the weapon itself. so there's a lot of frustration and i think that will continue. but it should fuel an effort to try this again. >> can we try it again? >> i think we can. >> do you think a possibility getting it back out there? >> i think there is. the key thing, i think, we have to remind people about the reason why we even have the conversation. this is about the kids in newtown. >> yeah. >> that's where it started for me. as you know, i had a substantial change of heart on this because of newtown. no other reason. i think every one of us has to ask kind of a basic question when you look yourself in the mirror and you have a vote in the united states senate, you got to say am i doing everything i can to substantially reduce the likelihood that this will

happen again? and if you can't answer that honestly and with a lot of work -- >> senator, i'm sure people are screaming at the tv this would not have impacted newtown. >> what? >> it may impact the next newtown. mika was saying it wouldn't change a thing in newtown. >> right. that is why i mentioned the ammunition. the magazines. >> we don't prepare for the last war. we prepare for the next war. >> yeah. >> when we're thinking about the next battle that's coming for our military, it's not going -- the next newtown is not going to be like newtown. >> right. >> it's going to be something else. my gosh. i was really surprised by the terrorists that got on youtube and he had this clip saying come to america, domestic terrorists are staying in america and get as many guns as you want because they don't have background checks. >> well, that's why i keep

coming back to the question of even if we got background checks done, i hope what wouldn't have happened is people start doing cartwheels that we had a great day in the u.s. senate because we got background checks passed. that is not nearly enough to deal with this problem. as you said, newtown was about -- was about the ability to take -- i think so it was 150 or 155 shots in five minutes. and his intention was to kill hundreds of children. not 20. >> i'd be interested to snow as -- know as a politician who has switched on this issue, what it's like to be a politician and lobby by or have the nra pressuring you? in other words, 90% of the country must be bewildered what happened last week. and, clearly, the nra played a huge political role in convincing a majority or would end up to be enough senators to defeat this bill, to vote against 90% of the will of the country.

how does that happen from inside? how does the nra influence a politician, a senator, a representative? what levers does it pull? >> i think most of this is probably in state in the dynamics of your state. i do think in this situationsta. but i do think that in this situation, where we are now is almost counterintuitive. everyone believes that when a crisis or a tragedy takes place, that that's a best time for action, and that's where the most pressure will be. i to think the next election, though, the next election cycle will create a dynamic we've never seen. you won't have a one-sided argument. you're going to have funded television ads. we're going to have funded campaigns against candidates. that will change the dynamic as much as the tragedy and the intensity of the moment. >> you think it will hurt the republicans badly in the midterm elections? >> it's hard to say. i think there is going to be some impact. i think what we're going to see now is a changing political

dynamic in an electoral sense. that might have as much impact as anything -- any kind of emotion or stirring of the heart that came from the tragedy itself. >> yeah. you know, by the way, we were talking about the nra and being lobbied. it reminds me, this would be a really good time to clean something up again. i served with chris cox. one of the nra lobbyists is chris cox. you said some pretty tough things about my friend, chris cox. who gave you a call. i'm so sorry, chris. chris, very conservative. >> i hate it when that happens. >> chris is in california. he said to me, joe, you're in very good company. because my mother called me a decade ago. >> i'm sorry. >> and said, i can't believe you were charlton heston today and you didn't even tell your

mother. chris said, mom, that's a different chris cox. i made that mistake, chris cox in california, orange county, california, so sorry. going back to the other chris cox who i'm sure i know, too. there's too many chris coxes around washington. they put out a statement in washington. one of the most maddening things about this entire debate. it is a false statement. it is objectively false. it is as false as saying that we are on espn right now. i mean, they said chris cox put a statement out afterwards talking about, you know, the usual stuff. this would lead to a national gun registry. but also it would stop relatives from transferring guns to relatives, friends, to friends. it's just a lie. it's a lie. because they carved out that exception. joe manchin said it, i got to say, richard, that's one of the things that surprises me about the nra. this is -- by the way, there's going to be a perfect case study ten years from now about whatnot

to do politically. you overreach. you go all in. on an issue that you should probably let go past. sometimes you got to let issues go past. i got to say, i do it every day on this show. i can't fight every liberal that comes on this show. you got to let certain things pass. i let a lot of things pass. and you've got to choose your fights. the nra didn't do it, and they lied time and time and time again. and it's not just 90% of americans that they offended. they offended a lot of members, a majority of the members of the nra. >> we'll look back on it one day, and people will question whether the slippery slope fit into the wedge argument which basically informs everything the nra does. whether that was the right strategy or whether they would have been smarter to say, look, we agree to this kind of gun control but that's where the ceiling is. whether that in the long run would have been a smarter tactic. ultimately by basically saying any gun control is unacceptable, they could lose control of the debate. if and when that day happens,

they may rue their strategy of an all or nothing approach. >> no doubt about it. what's next? first, i got to -- toomey. kind of surprised, toomey did a good job. >> he worked hard. he and joe did a great job. >> yeah. >> i do, think, we've got to do a lot more than background checks. >> say that again. >> we got to do a lot more than background checks. >> well, sure. >> of course. >> we got to do that. also, the fact we can't even pass a gun trafficking law, a national gun trafficking law that stops gang members from passing gun to gun to gun, who's against that? i don't understand how anybody could be against tough gun trafficking legislation. or background checks for criminals and terrorists. >> it's the same dynamic. but i think the dynamic is going to change. you're in one lane or the other. to get more people to cross lanes we've got to have an election cycle. >> senator bob casey, thank you very much for being on the show today. >> thank you. tomorrow on "morning joe" -- >> i love, mika, the daily news

covered it. you flashed. >> yeah. >> and the one last week. right after the lost vote. >> no. i mean, it's just -- absolutely, after the lost vote. >> talking about the cowards on the hill. >> mm-hmm. tomorrow on "morning joe" google executive chairman eric schmidt joins us here onset. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ [ male announcer ] purpose elevates what we do. raises it to a more meaningful place. makes us live what we do, love what we do and fills our work with rewarding possibility. aarp connects you to a community of experienced workers and has tools to help you find what you're good at. an ally for real possibilities. aarp. go to aarp.org/possibilities. would absolutely not have taken a zip line in the jungle. i'm really glad that girl stayed at home.

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still ahead on "morning joe," an emotional ceremony at fenway park as the red sox pay tribute to their fans and their city following last week's bombing. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." yowza. ana, you look terrific! ever heard of a lil' something called weight watchers online? ♪ i was adding on pounds eating my feelings ♪ ♪ but weight watchers saved my behind ♪ ♪ crash, bam, alakazam ♪ i lost my weight online ♪ now i'm schooled in all the tools, the plan's a snap ♪ ♪ there's a really cool app, can't be beat! ♪ ♪ this thing's sweet! ♪ aaaaaaaah ♪ crash! bam! ♪ i heart weight watchers online! ♪ [ female announcer ] join for free. and check out our risk-free guarantee. ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history.

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we are one boston. no adversity.

no challenge. nothing can tear down the resilience in the heart of the city and its people. nothing can defeat the hearts of the city. nothing. nothing will take us down, because we take care of one another. >> this is our city. and nobody going to dictate our freedom. >> it's a glorious thing. the love and the strength, the courage of our city.

it will push us forward, because this is boston. a city with courage, compassion, strength that knows no bounds. [ cheers and applause ] ♪ where it began ♪ hands, touching hands >> nava hits it in the upper

right field. frank gore going back, he's at the ball, boston! ♪ sweet caroline, good times never seemed so good ♪ >> so good, so good, so good! >> good morning. it is 8:05 on the east coast, 5 a.m. on the west coast. means it's time to wake up and get out of bed. >> sleep, my friends. >> if you don't, i'm going to pour cold water all over you like i did my girls. because they didn't want to get up for church. onset we have mike barnicle and richard haass. >> i would guess no game, even emotionally, no game, given the past glories, was as emotional, as epic on the game on

saturday -- willie and i always joke about, the worst thing in the world can happen to a city. dumb sports casters can go, you know, for three hours, jim, this city forgot there was a nuclear blast. >> something different was going on there. >> but here, and it could only happen in boston, because boston is a one sports team town. at the end of the day, it is the sox that pull the entire team together. >> fenway. >> fenway, the cathedral, to a city, it had to be an amazing day there. >> it was. it was an amazingly emotional afternoon. it was a cathartic moment. a baseball game happened to have been played, but it was as if there was this little tiny basilica in the back bay, and the region was attracted to it. the second suspect had been captured, successfully captured the evening before. neil diamond called the red sox switchboard. >> are you kidding me? >> called the red sox

switchboard and said, i'm in town. my name is neil diamond. i'd like to come and sing a song. and he showed up to the surprise -- >> which, of course, for people that are watching that don't know, that's been a tradition -- >> for a long, long time. many years. >> eighth inning they sing it. it's just an incredible boston moment. >> it was a poignant moment in the sense that the victims of the bombings were remembered. and are remembered each day. they'll be remembered today. the casualties in the hospitals in the region were remembered. so the day came with a lot of emotional baggage. the game was played with a lot of emotional baggage, but it was something. >> should point out that it was nick and collin barnicle, mike's sons, prospect productions who put that together for the top of the show. >> that was really well done. it was good. i want to watch the whole thing. let's get to the news. we'll start right there.

bells will ring throughout boston at 2:50 this afternoon to mark one week since the deadly marathon bombings struck. now according to investigators the lone surviving suspect, dzhokhar tsarnaev is responding to questioning. under heavy guard in the hospital, he is undergoing brief rounds of interrogation. apparently responding by writing his answers. the 19-year-old was shot through the neck in what some have speculated may have been a suicide attempt. boston police commissioner ed davis said it's possible the brothers were plotting more attacks based in part on the sheer number of devices found at the scene and in their home. and the complex portrait is emerging of the suspects who have roots in the tumultuous chechen region of russia. older brother tamerlan visited dagestan in 2012, a region in southern russia conflicted by an islamic insurgency where his father and mother still live. in an interview with the "wall street journal" her mother said tamerlan had given up boxing,

drinking and smoking as he turned to a religious life. she also told the paper he phoned her the night he died saying, quote, the police, they have started shooting at us. they are chasing us. telling her he loved her before the phone went silent. and his uncle who lives in maryland says he believes the older brother became radicalized in cambridge, not overseas, and eventually drew in his younger brother. lawmakers say more questions about their past need to be answered. >> we believe may have actually traveled on an alias to get back to his home country in that seven months, 6 1/2 months or so becomes extremely important. so you know he had some radicalization before he left. you know that he didn't probably travel on his own name or some variation of his own name. and when he comes back, he has a renewed interest in that radicalization belief process. it would lead one to believe that that's probably where he got that final radicalization to

permit him to commit acts of violence. >> this morning, mika, "the boston globe" is reporting some stories about what happened in mosques and, in fact, said the older brother had become r radicalized. evidence is mounting that he had become an islamic radical and the radicalization could have led to what happened last week. >> and, meanwhile, over the weekend, take a look at this. at the london marathon, runners waited 30 seconds before beginning their race. a moment of silence to remember the three people killed and more than 170 injured just one week ago. >> richard haas, give us some background for americans that haven't focused on what's happened in chechnya and, i mean, obviously you don't go too deep with the weeds. but talk about how the russians have been dealing with radical islam for years and what this

could mean for us. chechnya is southern russia in the old days stalin brutalized, essentially depopulated. people were able to come back under khrushchev. ever since you had grievances, resentments, hatred. it broke out into civil war 20-odd years ago. basically when the soviet union was transforming into russia and it has been brutal. it has been as tough and as hard as these struggles -- >> we talk about newtown. obviously, the horrors of newtown. we all remember the horrific siege at the school in that region that the terrorists killed so many young children. >> you know, terrorism by definition is awful, it's brutal, it kills innocents for political purposes. but even by if you will the standards of terrorism, this is basic, tough stuff. no quarter given.

neither side is prepared to give an end. >> there's a ruthlessness. >> sorry, richard. if there is laia link, though, don't know if there is one. if the gripe in chechnya is with the russian government why is he in boston killing americans? >> it's not clear if you will this is linked to that. you heard it from the end of the story which is the idea that the radicalization might well have happened here. which i think is an important lesson. the internet has become a major recruiting tool, radicalizing tool, training tool for terrorists worldwide. the older brother clearly went over there, may have gotten some training or further radicalization. my hunch was he was already moving in that direction. in an age of globalization you don't have to officially go somewhere now in order to be radicalized or trained. >> very early on in the investigation they were talking obviously about the style of the bomb, the device, looked similar to bombs where -- on al qaeda

sites. we've been showing an al qaeda video for the past several weeks related to guns. where the terrorist was saying, come to america and kill people because guns are easy. it's very accessible to get because of the lousy background check systems. you're right. you don't have to go over to pakistan anymore and the tribal regions to be radicalized. you can sit in your apartment in cambridge or in connecticut or wherever. and get these instructions. >> and that is the principle and perhaps most important threat of this story that investigators are now working. what happened over the past two to three years in the lives of these two brothers? what happened to radicalize them? that's a critical component of where this story is going to go. >> ultimately it's a much scarier thing. chechen nationalism, i don't believe, is what this is about. if it were it would be relatively small numbers and

small grieve answers. if it's a question of young men getting alienated and radicalized, it would be much bigger. it's what happened in london in 2005. you have people second generation. three of the four suicide bombers in britain were second generation. clearly alienated. got radicalized. that's what's so worrying here. the question we need to think about is how do we prevent it? this type of alienation, radicalization. once it happens how do we find out about it? that's the big issue. >> mika you saw "new york times" in the yesterday, of course, 30 other examples of muslims in the united states who became radicalized and tried to carry out the bombing in times square. of course, the ft. hood shooting and the attempt to blow up new york's subways. >> also we'll cover now the effort to sort of track these two. dzhokhar tsarnaev could face federal charges today. he'll most likely be tried in civilian court despite some calls to have him held as an enemy combatant.

>> i believe he should be treated as an enemy combatant for the purpose of interrogation. the reason for it is there are so many questions unanswered. there are so many potential links to terrorism here. also the battlefield is now in the united states. i believe he is an enemy combatant. and he would not be tried before a military commission. ultimately he would be tried in a civilian court and the statements taken from him cannot be used against him in that trial. >> the obama administration has agreed to delay a reading of his miranda writes under a public safety exemption. secretary of defense chuck hagel said sunday he has not seen evidence to link the bombings to terror groups. now, scrutiny turns to the fbi who reportedly questioned the older brother, tamerlan, in 2011, at the request of a foreign government. this is so interesting. of russia. but the fbi told the a.p. despite interviewing him and relatives, it did not find any domestic or foreign terrorism activity. still, some lawmakers say the agency dropped the ball.

richard, i wonder if there's going to be a lot of questions and maybe even hearings out of this or what comes to mind just knowing those basic facts? >> there will be questions. there probably will be hearings about the fbi, whether it could have learned more, whether it could have done things. the critics will say that's monday morning quarterbacking. for what it's worth, actually think if there is this type of hearings and questioning, it ought to be much broader. it ought to be about what we were just talking about. what can we do to prevent or identify young people who are radicalized? how do we respond? what did we learn about lockdowns, about the whole coordination among law enforcement? if there is a hearing, if there is some type of an after action report as the military would say, it ought not to just focus on fbi. it's much bigger. it's much broader. we've got to learn a lot from this. the reason is this is not a one off. >> no. >> this type of low, if you will, granular in terrorism, a couple of people, we're not talking about all sorts of large networks or organizations. there could be copy cats today stimulated by these guys. >> in plain sight. >> we better get used to this. >> also, i was talking about

copy cats. i want to ask about the decision to lock the entire city down in a minute. willie? >> i was just going to say it's important to remember these two young men have been in the united states for at least a decade. >> right. >> maybe more. it's not like they slipped in across the border to commit these atrocities. they lived right there in cambridge. >> they were citizens. >> they were citizens of the united states. >> functioned normally. >> they presumably didn't arrive as 7, 8, 9-year-olds with these feelings toward the united states, whatever they may be. they learned those here. we have to figure out why it happened and how we the next time can stop it from getting to the point of feelings to action. >> it would be nice, although i realize it's impossible, to have people who are running for office, whether you're running in south carolina or anywhere else, to just sit back, stop and think about this. because at one level, what happened here was a criminal act. they are murderers. before you make the leap into terrorism, they are murderers.

that's the first thing that people ought to be aware of. especially united states senators who want to inject themselves into this thing. coming up next, boston's own lawrence o donnell joins us from his hometown. he'll share with us the emotional conversation he had with watertown police chief, edward deveau. also ray kelly will be here in the studio. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> morning. as we start this earth week we're watching a calm weather day. the flooding of the weekend is peaking on the mississippi river and illinois river. still bitterly cold in the northern plains. we'd love to get you spring, melt your snow. you have a lot of it on the ground. still 25 up in billings this morning. it's actually snow ing. there's a new storm coming down. feel for the people in south dakota. they'd love spring. that white on the map is snow. they're going to get a couple inches of it as we go throughout the day today. careful there traveling on the interstates. especially interstate 90 from rapid city to sioux fall. as far as the flood zone goes,

light rain heading your way as we go throughout tonight and tomorrow. at most maybe an inch of rain. if you have flooding on your river and it's raining, it just kind of doesn't make you feel good anyways. the forecast for the east, still two thunderstorms exiting florida. the east coast, we're actually looking okay today. actually for much of the week we have pretty nice forecast for a lot of people, eastern half of the country. there's a shot of st. louis. the mississippi river in major flood stage will be peaking and cresting today in the gateway city. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. i've always had to keep my eye on her... but, i didn't always watch out for myself. with so much noise about health care... i tuned it all out. with unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters... my individual health profile. not random statistics. they even reward me for addressing my health risks.

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22 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." joining us from boston, the host of msnbc's "the last word," lawrence o'donnell. give us a sense of what it's like in boston at the start of this new week. also about your conversation with police chief of watertown, edward deveau. >> things are moving back to normal here, more so every day. but i was in watertown yesterday with chief ed deveau. that, mika, as everyone now knows is where this story ended. it's where the terror made its final stop. and just so you get a picture of this place, population of 32,000. after midnight in watertown, they have a total of four police officers on patrol in that shift. and that's how many were actually on patrol in watertown

at that time in single man cars in watertown. as soon as they knew the action was coming their way, two officers who were on their way home turned around so they had a total of six to respond to this. one car responded to it alone, giving chase. and the very strange thing about this chase as we now know is that the brothers decided to stop. they were ahead. they were getting away. they stopped the car. they got out and they started walking toward this one officer. so ed deveau is in charge of this police department where this incredible nightmare ends up. and the final real gun battle of this incredible story does not occur against the heavily armed boston tactical forces, the specially trained forces who were ready for interventions like this. this occurs against these basically small town cops adjacent to big city departments like boston and cambridge.

and we saw the incredible outpouring of gratitude here. and it really moved those officers. especially the watertown guys. ed deveau, the chief of that department, he's been there for 30 years. a 30-year veteran. his office is in the building that used to be his elementary school. when he looks out the window of his office, mika, he can see the house that he grew up in. so here was this local watertown guy with this invasion coming to his town. and they were the people who had to stop it, and they are the people who did stop it. i talked to him yesterday about the various ways the gratitude has been expressed. and you see in the community room there that they have in the headquarters all sorts of gifts, the food, and all this sort of thing has been brought in. but there was one moment that was very special. and i'm going to let him tell you about it while i have some video of it, of some people -- a

person who came to give them -- to give the department and give him a very special token of appreciation. i think we have that tape ready to go. >> they told me yesterday morning, chief, you got to come downstairs. there's two people in the lobby that want to meet you, want to talk to you. i went downstairs, there was in gentleman about 25 and his fiancee. he hands me a letter. it says i trained for the marathon. i did 600 hours. i struggled. it was very painful. i did 16 miles and i got tired, didn't think i could make it to the finish line. i struggled. i got over the finish line. the bombs went off. i don't deserve this medal. i'm giving it to your department. that's just one of thousands of stories of how people have come to us. you know, that's the medal for our guys. those six guys down there, you

know, we need -- they deserve a trip to the white house or something. they deserve the recognition that's just beyond how they survive and how they took these guys down and those bombs didn't go somewhere else. i just can't be prouder of those guys. >> excuse me. lawrence, while you were over there yesterday, one of the patrol officers on the scene late thursday night during the fire fight, it was a watertown cop, joe reynolds. and as you indicated, you know, these were single officer patrol cars responding. >> right. >> they were vastly outgunned. and one of them, i believe it could have been officer reynolds. perhaps you can clarify it. dropped his car into drive and rolled it, crashes it into the suv they had carjacked in order to continue slowing them down. >> yeah, mike, what i talked

about with the chief was, he was very plain about this. look, we didn't train for this. there was nothing in our training about if this kind of thing happens. and he said, these guys were running on instinct. they were doing -- every move they made was something that both worked and that they had to make the decision on in that moment. you know, one of the things that kind of mystified some of us was how did -- how did the younger brother get away? we've seen a lot of these televised car chases. especially the ones that happen during daylight. you see, you know, once the suspect jumps out of the car, we're minutes away from grabbing him. but he was actually hundreds of yards away when he jumped out of the car. they had an officer down they were treat ing. they had to make this horrible decision, do we foot chase him? they know there's a bunch of boston cops, as deveau, the cavalry is coming in behind them. they made the decision, let the

incoming vehicles stay with that kid. we're going to stay with the officer down. >> lawrence, thank you so much. see more of lawrence's interview with the watertown, massachusetts, police chief tonight at 10:00 eastern time on "the last word." a really moving interview. up next, new york city police commissioner ray kelly. we'll be right back.

with us now, the commissioner of the new york city police department, ray kelly. ray, what are your thoughts? what does boston mean for new york and other cities now as we move forward? >> well, we'll see what it means for us. we always want to talk to the boston officials, the fbi. but i'm surprised that something like this hasn't happened more often. we've had 16 plots against the city. they've been thwarted as a result of just good luck, certainly good fbi work, good nypd work. but i'm surprised it hasn't happened in other cities in america. we see this sort of let 1,000 flowers bloom approach on the part of al qaeda inspired people. we did a report in 2007 that's still very applicable today. our two analysts, mitchell sivla and alvin baht talked about this

radicalization process of young men who go through four phases and decide relatively quickly to commit terrorist acts. >> "the boston globe" this morning, the headline talking about how the brothers took a radical turn, the evidence is mounting. is it your belief then that this attack was al qaeda inspired? >> yes. i think it's -- i think most people in this business think that that's the case. al qaeda's, you know, leadership has been significantly degraded. so what you have is these sort of al qaeda inspired events happening all over. >> richard haas -- >> you say something about what we've learned in new york about how we reduce the chances that young men get radicalized, get inspired, or if they do how do we get the community leadership to turn them in, to basically work with you rather than shield them? >> we have an awful lot of community support here. i think it's just not logical to think that the community is

going to know about young men becoming radicalized. they know that they're being watched. they know they're being watched by their own community. so what we see is very, very small groups or individuals who are -- who are doing this. they're not advertising it. now, you know, in retrospect you can say, well, he started to act strangely or he did a series of things. but prior to an event happening, it's very difficult to identify. but in terms of community support, we think we have significant community support. from -- certainly from the muslim community. i have a group of leaders that i meet with on a regular basis. i go to mosques on a regular basis. other members of the department do that as well. but the notion that you can identify these people easily, i just don't think it holds water. >> can you speak to the -- to the use of surveillance cameras in urban areas? the increasing reliance on

surveillance cameras? some people, you know, civil libertarians worry about, you know, surveillance cameras, but how they assist in -- in not preventing crime, perhaps, but maybe preventing crime. just the use of surveillance cameras. >> i think they prevent crime and certainly in identifying someone who's committed a crime. i can tell you that's the first thing that our detectives do when a crime happens, a shooting, a murder. they're looking for surveillance cameras. they're looking for private sector cameras. now, we have a significant number of our own cameras, public sector cameras. probably as many as 6,000 now and they're increasing. and some of our cameras, particularly in lower manhattan are smart cameras. they can identify certain -- for instance, putting a package down. leaving that package down for, let's say, three minutes. an alarm can go off. the smart cameras are -- they're increasing in number.

>> run the smart camera aspect by me again. i am down on lower wall street. i put a bag down on the curb. i walk away. a camera hones in on the bag and sounds an alarm? >> we have an example of a bag being dropped outside the new york stock exchange, and very quickly it's identified. the bomb squad responds. and it was -- you know, it obviously wasn't a bomb. but, yeah, we have that capacity. and we're increasing that capability in the cameras that we have. the world is changing. so i'm a major proponent of cameras. more cameras, the better. and i think the privacy issue is, you know, been taken off the table. you walk into a department store, you're being photographed 30 times. a couple hundred times a day when you're in a public domain. i don't think people are concerned about it. i think they accept it in sort of the post-9/11 world

situation. >> you would think mike would be asking about these smart cameras for public safety reasons. of course, he's worried about his activities in central park, wearing the sunglasses, following women around in the spring. he couldn't ask the police -- let's face it. >> i tried to get it out of him. >> the commissioner has been dealing with this problem now for approximately eight years since mike has been coming to new york. mike just hopes that they don't have the smart camera that detects old guys with deflector shades getting out and following young women. i'm sorry we had to discuss this here. i know the guy has to pass out restraining orders, seriously. like playing cards. >> he's the one guy in central park who wants to be stopped and frisked. >> in addition to the -- >> this is awful. commissioner, help me out here. >> we're going to change the subject for a minute. it's a family television show. >> not really. >> say something about the lockdown about as a tactic.

when do you do it, when don't you do it? are there any guidelines for how you decide that? >> that's really for local officials. it has to do with the culture if you will and how ready a community is to do that sort of thing. and how easy is it to do? how controllable is the situation? it looked to me like the -- you know, the boston citizens certainly responded extremely well. they were asked to do it and they did it. that's great. >> what does the increasing use of surveillance cameras, the smart cameras, the bag, financial district, honing in on it, what does it do in terms of personnel? i mean, responding to these things. do you need more personnel or the personnel that you have, are they -- is it adequate? you have an adequate number of personnel? do you see a need for growth in personnel? >> i don't think we're there yet as far as assessing what it means as far as personnel is concerned. obviously in the big picture,

over time, you could argue that it means a decrease in personnel. because you're using technology, using cameras to replace, you know, eyeballs. but i don't think we've come to that determination. we're down -- the police department is down 6,000 police officers than where we were 11 years ago. so we've already sort of paid the price. and we're using to a certain extent technology to plug the gaps. we're increasing the number of cameras that we have. one of the things that we're doing, we had it in motion prior to the boston marathon. but we want to increase the number of mobile cameras that we have so we can put them up at events and then move them to other events. along our marathon route, we have 220 cameras. but most of them are on bridges. we want to increase at least the public sector cameras that we have along that route. >> all right. new york city police commissioner, ray kelly, thank

you very much. it's always good to see you. >> thank you for the great job you keep doing for the city. >> thank you. a new book on afghanistan that's not so good. president hamid karzai had to talk to the author himself about it. award winning historian william dalrymple joins us next. keep it right here on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

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i had no idea. >> i had no idea either. >> 44 past the hour. definitely looks like a model. >> she looks like a model. specifically, her hair. right? >> yeah. >> how can you not know she was a shampoo model. welcome back. it's all so clear now. >> it makes sense. award winning historian william dalrymple is author of the new book "return of a king: the battle for afghanistan 1839 to

1842." don't worry, we'll talk about it. it always sells. catty kay at age 14. >> you've known her for a long time. >> i have known her since 18. i went to paris to see a friend there. she was already a shampoo model. we were all these innocent boys coming out from yorkshire. didn't know anything. >> a shampoo model. >> she's on tomorrow, huh? >> yes. really! >> thank god -- >> you think she's intellectual? >> guys just fell from the sky. >> she's a gorgeous intellectual. now you're telling me she started out as a model. >> that was when she was at school. that wasn't her career. >> you said your friends -- >> one of my friends tell totally for her. sat outside her apartment all night. couldn't get in because of security. >> paris. >> ended up on a park bench witnessing a homicide. >> his love for catty kay. >> i can't believe it. >> i think you owe her dinner.

i think you're in trouble. >> i think catty is really mad right now. >> so "return of the king." we always talk about overreach. of course, you have the rise and fall of great powers. this is actually an 1839 version of that. this is the british empire at the height of power, the right of glory. >> correct. >> they make a mistake in afghanistan that russia and america later would repeat. tell us about it. >> in 1839, britain, at the moment it controls more of the world economy than it will ever do before or since, about 40% of world trade, go in and invades afghanistan. looks as if it's going to be incredibly easy. >> always does, doesn't it? >> they walk in as with many other subsequent invasions, looks as if everything's going to go very easy. within a few months they are busy ice skating. they brought their fox hounds. they've come up with 30 camels full of -- they brought three camels with cigars. one camel just carrying eau du

cologne for the troops. all looks easy. within 18 months the most incredible jihad has been declared. the troops are completely surrounded. because they walked in so easily they haven't made any fortifications. they're surrounded on all sides by hills. the afghans capture their food and ammunition within about 48 hours. they shoot the deputy governor at the uprising. the main governor goes out to negotiate. he gets shot dead. you have a completely lead to this army without food, without ammunition in the middle of winter. all they can do is retreat. 18,500, men, women and children leave walking into the hills in the middle of the blizzards of mid-winter. >> dear lord. >> one man makes it through to jal jalalabad six days later. the whole of the rest of the army is completely wiped out. >> my god. that's an amazing story.

richard haas? >> let's bring it, then, forward. other than mike barnicle none of us is an expert on this period of mid 19th century. >> he was there, for god's sake. eyewitness. >> eyewitness. >> something of a debate going on now as we look back on afghanistan about quote, unquote, whether it was lost and other school of thoughts, it never could have been won. where do you come out on this? is there something about the nature of afghanistan that just makes it impossible or unwise for outsiders to get ambitious? >> i think it's very unwise to go to afghanistan and very few people have succeeded. but it's not true that you can't conquer the country. there having successive impyres like the moguls managed to keep it in check for many hundreds of years. where i think america went wrong was that rather going in showing some goodwill by building some roads, building some hospitals, spending some money on a completely broken country, and then withdrawing quickly, you

stayed in and only did security. by the time i was turning up regularly in afghanistan in 2009, even the main road from the airport into town didn't have tarmac. the whole of kabul was awash with mud. afghans would say, we hear there's all this money being spent, trillions and trillions of dollars being poured in. we're not seeing any of it. >> you met with hamid karzai. >> i got summoned to hamid karzai. >> how did that go? >> this is a sense is the point of the book. the guy the british put in in 1839 is more or less karzai. he's the same chief of the same tribe from the same lineage. and very similar kind of guy. charismatic, educated, enormously cultured. but from a very particular elite of the country. and he did no better than -- than karzai this time. and he's constantly obsessed with the idea that the afghans see him as they now remember sharshuja which is a puppet. a puppet ruler put in by

foreigners. his entire legacy is he thinks in doubt. unless he distances himself from america. which is why you're getting this very strange talk back going on, biting the hand that feeds him. not because he's mad or crazy which is one of the kind of theories. >> off his meds. >> essentially what you get the pakistanis briefing, saying this guy is nuts, crazy, should be removed. the reality is he just doesn't want to be remembered as a puppet. he's got a year to show he's an independent ruler. wants to be remembered in afghanistan as someone that has his own policies, own ideas. i find him good company. he's charismatic, witty, full of zest. >> it's rather hard to partner with someone who's basically decided he cannot survive if he is a partner. >> it's no easy feat. he's looking to the future and wants to survive after you're gone. >> the book is "return of the king: the battle for afghanistan 1839 to 1942." >> looks great. >> thank you for the intel on catty kay. >> you can ask her tomorrow about me. >> catty. shampoo model.

all right. take care. thank you so much. >> i was a parisian shampoo model once. we'll be right back. but what we'd rather be making are tee times. tee times are the official start of what we love to do. the time for shots we'd rather forget, and the ones we'll talk about forever. in michigan long days, relaxing weather and more than 800 pristine courses make for the perfect tee time. because being able to play all day is pure michigan. your trip begins at michigan.org.

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i think we ought to bring him in. >> i'm going to hire him. >> let's bring him in. >> i love him. find him. okay? north dakota. he's suspended, so he's got time. >> he's got time to come to

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really mess up his spring routines. >> i'm sorry. >> they make mistakes. >> really, do they? not as many as you do when you have the reflectors on and chase after unsuspecting women. >> don't believe everything you see. >> okay. what did you learn today, mike? >> i learned as you will explain when we get to the end of the line here my new hero is a.j. clementi. a young anchor sort of working out in north dakota. that's what i learned. >> he got suspended. but we're going to have him on the show. i mean, i think he's going to be great at this north dakota nbc station. but he really fits in better here on "morning joe." >> the whole delay. we have that. they don't have that in north dakota. you will be able to give him good advice from your own personal experience of dropping f-bombs. >> what's so funny, alex was just yelling in my ear because we have a seven-second delay. because, a.j., we feel your pain. not in this last segment. because we go to chuck. chuck doesn't need